Tantric Forum Log from 3-3-99
Troimille

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Speaker: Troimille (that’s me!)
“The Current of Love” #9 of 10

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Troimille: Ok, just to get things started, I'll reiterate the synopsis that
Mary already sent out...
Troimille: This week's class is all about what we think is going to "just
somehow happen", and
Troimille: what changes when we are fully committed, passionately and
whole-heartedly
Troimille: convicted, to expressing Life Force, to expressing our whole,
true Self. We keep
Troimille: thinking "love will happen, somehow" or "my spiritual
transformation will happen,
Troimille: somehow" or "the evolution of humanity will happen, somehow".
What if there isn't
Troimille: anybody or anything "out there"? What if the whole universe is
waiting just for my
Troimille: own command, the combined intent of the Whole of my Self? What
kind of love could
Troimille: two such self-realized, causal beings share together?
Troimille: -- Have you had any thoughts about this? Where do you think this
will take us?
Alisnntrnt: unity?
Tamerri: Barry shouldn't go in search of that ideal mate but prepare for it
Troimille: Tamerri, is our preparation for the mate, or for the Beloved?
Tamerri: Beloved?
Troimille: Right-- you win the prize!
Troimille: (Hmmm, so far I've gotten two one-word answers-- wonder what that
Troimille: means...?)
Tamerri: hmm good question Barry
Troimille: (although one was sort of a question, I guess)
Alisnntrnt: I feel that it was a Q
Alisnntrnt: ;)
Troimille: Mary, do you have a whole sentence about "unity"? Or shall I
proceed?
Alisnntrnt: you asked where we thought it would take us
Alisnntrnt: divine union is what I meant by unity
Troimille: Ok, whatever that means-- sounds good, eh?
Troimille: Well, let me ramble a bit, and then see what shows up, ok?
Troimille: Tonight we will look at what we wish to have, in terms of what we
need to become in order
Troimille: for our wish already to be true in our new reality. Don't we
keep thinking that, if I only
Troimille: found just the right man or just the right girl, or got the right
break, then I'd be happy? But
Troimille: it's always something "out there", isn't it?
Troimille: It's not I who has to change, even though we secretly despise
ourselves and our lives? If
Troimille: people only knew me, they would adore me, wouldn't they? There's
nothing wrong with me--
Troimille: it's just the system that's unfair, or those bad people out
there somewhere, right? Is love
Troimille: something that I should get, or is it something that is only
given, not taken nor expected?
Troimille: I think at least part of that is what we already agreed on,
right?
Troimille: -- Any comments or questions so far?
AzureWinds: I have the right man
AzureWinds: Actually, stated more accurately, we have the right
AzureWinds: each other
Tafc323: and how do you know?
Troimille: AzureWinds, for what? For eternal happiness? For all the growth
you'll ever
Troimille: want? For self-knowledge?
AzureWinds: Because our relationship is based on sharing of love,
AzureWinds: respect of beliefs, FEELINGS and we know it
Tamerri: Barry sounds like you are asking if our thought inhibit our
processes or influence the way
Tamerri: we view life
Troimille: AzureWinds, well, so far I get that it feels good. Anything else?
Alisnntrnt: learning to give love without expectations isn't easy. those
old programs keep coming up
AzureWinds: Troimille, self knowledge is just that...self
AzureWinds: knowledge. We do contribute to each others growth.
Troimille: Tamerri, something like that, yes.
Tamerri: true Mary
Tamerri: yes Barry it does
Tafc323: how do you know to believe "everything" that he/she says and does?
Honestly? Growth depends
Troimille: Alisnntrnt, how do we get past or change those programs? They
started before
Troimille: we could talk, you know.
AzureWinds: Alisnntrnt, I think there in lies the error of most ways,
AzureWinds: love is not something you give, it is something you
AzureWinds: are and you share who you are with another.
Tafc323: on honesty and belief in others is something that is very difficult
these days
Alisnntrnt: I feel some did and some we impose on ourselves
Tafc323: don't you have to love yourself before you can share in earnest?
Tamerri: Azure do you believe that we can change those ways?
Troimille: Alisnntrnt, do you think we ourselves can ever impose real change
on ourselves?
Troimille: Tafc323, who loves what? What part "loves" which part of
"myself"?
AzureWinds: Tamerri, I believe anyone can change anything if
AzureWinds: they want to.
Troimille: AzureWinds, I've wanted desperately to change for 50 years, and
I’m still the
Troimille: same.
AzureWinds: Troimille, what are you trying to change?
Alisnntrnt: not sure about that Barry, possibly by altering our perceptions
we can learn to love
Alisnntrnt: ourselves
Troimille: AzureWinds, my being. My nature. My shape, my thoughts, my
feelings, my
Troimille: habits, my projections,...
Troimille: Alisnntrnt, how do we know that "loving ourselves" is a suitable
goal?
AzureWinds: Troimille, first you begin by ACCEPTING YOURSELF!
Tafc323: why are you trying to confuse me with double talk?
Tamerri: Barry we can alter ourselves for brief periods but we return to who
we really are especially
Tamerri: in a crisis
AzureWinds: Troimille, trying to change is the flip coin of
AzureWinds: resistance.
Tafc323: read nothing more into what I ask or say than what is being said
Alisnntrnt: by our choice to do so Barry
Tamerri: or stressful times
Troimille: AzureWinds, I won't accept my slumber, my self-denial and
-destruction, my
Troimille: weaknesses...
Troimille: Anyhow, I wasn't really asking for helpful advice, I was hoping
to get the
Troimille: discussion going a little bit.
LadyWolffe: how bout practicing non resistance?
AzureWinds: Troimille, we have to accept all aspects of ourselves
AzureWinds: BEFORE we can begin to change them, elsewise, we
AzureWinds: are resisting and what we resist we hold onto.
Troimille: AzureWinds, I completely agree-- now I shall continue the
sermon...
Troimille: Now, how could changing myself change reality? Have you ever
been worried about a
Troimille: confrontation you had waiting, fretting and trying to find a way
to wiggle out of it? Have
Troimille: you noticed that, if you forgive in advance, and take the
viewpoint of the other person, and
Troimille: admit to your own faults, the confrontation somehow evaporates--
Troimille: suddenly the other person is willing to see your issues, or even
starts taking the
Troimille: initiative to help you? Have you noticed that if you are
grateful, appreciative and
Troimille: willing to bear whatever your consequences are, obstacles move
out of the way
Troimille: and new opportunities miraculously show up?
Tafc323: Not always Barry....
Troimille: I'm talking about the principle-- have you noticed this *ever*
happening?
LadyWolffe: not always right away but I do agree that they do
Troimille: (continuing...)
LadyWolffe: yes I’ve noticed it in my own life and circumstances
Tafc323: In the moment of potential confrontation both parties are "up" and
just one person making
Tafc323: change requires "time out"
Tafc323: I work and live in three professional worlds and have yet to see
such a happening
Troimille: Tafc323, good point-- and do we take the *time-out* internally,
by ourselves,
Troimille: to break our habitual thoughts and "feelings"?
Tafc323: I agree that our own feelings are in our control but we are human
with emotions that must
Tafc323: live and many times control is more difficult than you think
Troimille: Tafc323, that notion is one of the habits I am here to challenge.
:)
Tafc323: Then challenge life that is given in this world. Try to live with
thousands of others
Tafc323: that may not have those controls or understandings
Troimille: What difference could that make? The only thing that can make a
difference to
Troimille: me, is owning the Whole of my Self.
Tafc323: but YOU WILL NEVER "OWN" SELF TOTALLY
Troimille: Tafc323, I beg to differ, and I am finding plenty of evidence to
support my
Troimille: notion.
Troimille: Now please hold questions/comments for a couple of minutes-- I've
got
Troimille: something for you to chew on...
Tafc323: Then you are special because so far you're the only one that I know
of with that control
Troimille: Do you decide and do things in terms of what you are comfortable
with? Have you decided
Troimille: that you know yourself, what's right, what's wrong for you? Do
you have principles and
Troimille: values? Free will? Self-authority? Are your decisions and acts
final, whole-hearted,
Troimille: passionate and ruthless? Are you ready and willing to die for
your principles, and live for
Troimille: caring and beauty?
Troimille: How would you have to be different in order to live that
committedly, that much on-the-
Troimille: edge? Or are you excused from that sort of thing? After all,
why me? Why should I have
Troimille: to rock the boat? What's wrong with what I've been doing?
Troimille: What's wrong with what I've been getting, with my relationships,
my "comfort"? Or, do you
Troimille: claim in full-out premature self-congratulation, as so many
"spiritual" people do habitually,
Troimille: "that's what I've been doing all along!"
Troimille: -- Well, is it? Do you?
Troimille: Tafc323, it's not a matter of control, and I have precious little
"control" or "will
Troimille: power" myself. :)
Tafc323: I understand
Troimille: Tafc323, there is no way you could quite understand yet, at this
point. There
Troimille: is so much I have to tell you...
Tafc323: As far as relationships, I agree with the scriptures when it is
discussed that "I" am better
Tafc323: off not being in a relationship.
Troimille: Tafc323, when are we NOT in relationship???
Tafc323: As for understanding, I understand more than you think or I will
let on
Troimille: Tafc323, but you think you have me pretty much "pegged", and I've
only told
Troimille: you half of something.
Tafc323: with me...always. With God always. With others.....hhhmmm
Tafc323: a puzzle starts with less than half but can be easily solved with
creative understanding
Troimille: (Now watch where we go with this...)
Tafc323: go for it
Troimille: (please hold comments once again)
Troimille: What an amazing juggling act! We have somehow learned to excuse
ourselves for
Troimille: everything out one side, and claim that we've already (at least
"in principle") achieved all
Troimille: that, out the other side. "What's the use-- we're all going to
die", out one side; and, "I have
Troimille: free will, and I've already been having Cosmic Consciousness and
ecstatic visions" out the
Troimille: other side.
Troimille: Out one side: "There's nothing we can do about our mortality (or
taxes, etc.)", and out the
Troimille: other side, "Of course I am an immortal being, and I know who I
am." "I could do
Troimille: whatever I decide to-- I just don't feel like it."
Troimille: Are you starting to get the picture? How can I have "free will"
if I never do "feel
Troimille: like it"? How could I be immortal if I've already given up? How
can I be the
Troimille: impassioned manifestation of life force without ever leaving my
comfort zone, at
Troimille: least until some "unjust disaster" comes along?
Troimille: How could I possibly "know who I am" if I never, ever consider
anything except how I will
Troimille: look, how people will think of me, and what a pitiful victim I
am-- "Everybody should know
Troimille: how much they hurt me," I whine inside myself, or the converse:
Tafc323: You can only be "immortal" if you accept Christ...no matter what
you teach
Troimille: "Everybody should admire me." Or even just "I want it now"-- is
it possible that our
Troimille: emotional dimension has never advanced beyond three years old?
Then how could I ever
Troimille: possibly know myself, truly for what I am?
Troimille: Tafc323, I apologize-- I didn't realize we were in the Christian
Fellowship room :)
Troimille: Ok, anyone else? Questions? Arguments?
SoulMan911: Immortal in which way Troimille ? just to be clear
Troimille: SoulMan911, even though we do everything out of fear of death, we
still act as
Troimille: if we are already immortal...
Troimille: ... and yet, there IS immortality bequeathed to those of us who
learn how to
Troimille: demand our birthright.
Tamerri: and how do we demand our birth right?
Troimille: We act as if we are immortal by putting off everything important
till "later", by
Troimille: never wondering about our existence, by wishing this
hour/day/week/year were
Troimille: over, even if it may be our very last minute on earth.
Troimille: Tamerri, exactly what I'll be getting to-- hold on a minute more,
ok?
Troimille: SoulMan911, does that make sense?
Tamerri: ok :)
SoulMan911: ok ...but how does vanity play into the same context of
immortality..
Troimille: SoulMan911, our vanity keeps convincing us that we are "immortal
enough" that
Troimille: we don't have to concern ourselves with our mortality, with the
consequences
Troimille: of every act, every word, every thought that we entertain.
Troimille: ... and worst of all, our vanity convinces us that we don't have
to change just
Troimille: today-- there will always be time for that-- meanwhile I can talk
the good talk
Troimille: about my "spirituality", right?
SoulMan911: so then our own vanity can deceive us ..if we allow it to?
Troimille: SoulMan911, our "vanity" is our self-deception, our blind spot,
*maya*-- we can
Troimille: never ever see ourselves-- that's why we have relationships with
"other
Troimille: people", I find.
Troimille: (Ok, I'll go on a bit more...)
Troimille: That leaves us with three questions: 1) Won't I just grow and
change automatically, just
Troimille: because I'm "human" or "spiritual"? 2) Why should I go to the
trouble of changing myself
Troimille: and my habits-- what's in it for me? 3) What does it take to make
these changes, and is
Troimille: there enough help for me?
Troimille: For question one, I think you can guess what I will answer, based
on what I've said before,
Troimille: right? Tomorrow will be just like today, because today is just
like yesterday. What have I
Troimille: done differently today? That's why I'm giving you a new homework
exercise, to practice
Troimille: making today different. That also goes toward answering the
third question-- doing our
Troimille: practices.
Troimille: That's what Tantra, yoga and k'ung fu really are-- methodical
practices for self-evolution,
Troimille: even though it has become common to define them in terms of what
"goodies" we can get
Troimille: out of them now-- feel good, better sex, "self-confidence," etc.
Troimille: But these practices were handed down to us for their own purpose
(whose own purpose?)--
Troimille: to quicken our awareness and sensitivities so that we can take
our places in the Cosmos,
Troimille: be in Communion with the Higher Intelligences that make up the
laws of the denser worlds,
Troimille: perform the Dance of Creation.
Troimille: These are all just words, so they're not quite true; we each have
to quicken and see for
Troimille: ourselves, know for ourselves. Find out how ecstatically
passionate we can be, find out
Troimille: what it truly means to be immortal, discover what we really are,
and what we truly have
Troimille: been doing "here."
Troimille: -- Ok, that seems to be a mouthful... can you swallow any of it?
SoulMan911: Oh beautiful day for that revelation ..I can only imagine that
feeling
Troimille: SoulMan911, do you believe that such is possible for us
"moderns"?
Troimille: Anyone? Is this possible for YOU?
SoulMan911: yes I do ..I have dreams about it ...but never remember what I
dreamed only stay with a good
SoulMan911: feeling
Troimille: Tamerri, do you see now we are starting to "answer" your
question?
Troimille: SoulMan911, where do you suppose you can go from there?
SoulMan911: these are things I consider spiritual ...I am on my quest
Tamerri: yes Barry can see that change occurs with methods used
Troimille: And so, how will you know you are going in the right direction?
Do you have a
Troimille: vision, or how does your heart tell you?
SoulMan911: I just know ...deep in my soul I know
Stompdncr: Isn't using a definition like "quest" another way of putting off
like you discussed?
SoulMan911: could you be a little more clear ..Stomp?
Troimille: Stompdncr, everything is both a direction and a misdirection-- it
takes a lot of
Troimille: wordless trust.
Stompdncr: are not these paths of enlightenment...all of them? quests,
visions, etc.?
Troimille: ... We find a teaching or a guru that serves us FOR A TIME, and
then, if we
Troimille: stay too long, we lose what we came for, have you noticed?
Stompdncr: you have the way of the practice of the path and the stages of
the generation of the fruit
SoulMan911: yes ...every place we go has an answer for us..once we find it ..
it tends to lead us to
SoulMan911: another place with more answers
Troimille: SoulMan911, are we even looking for "answers", or are we finding
our Self?
Troimille: ... Aren't all these "answers" we "find" only what is inside
ourselves, that we are
Troimille: able to recognize at a particular stage?
Troimille: ... does it *ever* matter how much somebody else knows, or how
"amazing"
Troimille: some guru is, or what a wonderful speaker so-and-so is?
Troimille: My best teacher on earth, so far, doesn't even speak English, and
I don't speak
Troimille: his language either. :)
SoulMan911: answers about self ...and yes it matters ...especially when
you realize where these
SoulMan911: answers really come from
Troimille: Ok, friends-- I'll just leave you with one more homework
assignment, and it'll be
Troimille: a while before I'll check up on you, unless you email me...
Troimille: New homework: Each evening, pick some activity that you know you
will do the next day,
Troimille: and decide how you will do it differently: if you habitually do
it with your right hand, do it
Troimille: with your left; if you drive along a certain route, go another
way. Change the order of
Troimille: eating-- have dessert first, perhaps. Eat something you don't
especially care for. Talk to
Troimille: someone you never would talk to.
Troimille: Trust someone you have just met; respond differently than you
normally would to
Troimille: someone's comment or action. Say "thank you" when you are
annoyed-- and mean it; smile
Troimille: with happiness and appreciation when you are bored or frustrated.
Pick something different
Troimille: each night. Be creative; move outside of your habits. Notice how
you excuse yourself each
Troimille: time.
Troimille: Does this make any sense to you?
Alisnntrnt: yes Barry
Tamerri: thanks Barry
Troimille: Any questions, comments, arguments?
Ajmystic: yes. it seems you want us to be aware of our life force
expressions and changes
SoulMan911: that’s a tough assignment
Troimille: Keep it very simple and short at first.
Alisnntrnt: I feel it's a challenge
Stompdncr: right out of Castenada or the contrary traditions
Troimille: Stompdncr, are you surprised? Every transformation takes
breaking of habits,
Troimille: right?
Stompdncr: not at all
Stompdncr: surprised agree wholeheartedly
SoulMan911: so ..learn to be gracious
Troimille: Ajmystic, actually, this exercise is just to be aware at all!
Just to bring some
Troimille: light into the darkness of our slumber.
Alisnntrnt: seems like this exercise might be about making choices too Barry
Stompdncr: especially if we can keep the ego out of there saying look what
I've done lol
Troimille: SoulMan911, "gracious" only if that is different for you- rude if
you've been
Troimille: "gracious"
Troimille: Alisnntrnt, right- the premise is that we can only really make
choice if we know
Troimille: our selves.
SoulMan911: lol I understand ...
Troimille: Ok, dear friends-- anything else before we finish?
Tamerri: goodnight all
Alisnntrnt: Barry, thank you so much for all you have shared tonight
Troimille: :::::::: bows "graciously" :::::::::
Alisnntrnt: and thank all of you here for sharing too
Stompdncr: mvtto! Troimille
SoulMan911: well Troimille..again you have managed to open our minds to
think..thanks and goodnite
Alisnntrnt: any more Q's or comments before I close the log for tonight?
Troimille: You are welcome-- please let me know how you're doing, from time
to time, and
Troimille: also I have an online newsletter that you'd be welcome to.
Troimille: One more announcement...
Troimille: AOL wants to close down the Parascope forum, but if you value it,
please say
Troimille: so in keyword Suggestions.